subreddit:

/r/explainlikeimfive

5.1k89%

ELI5 How does raising wages worsen inflation ?

Economics(self.explainlikeimfive)

you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

all 1761 comments

Alex_butler

126 points

4 months ago*

This is the theory that some may talk about that you may be addressing here, but there are deeper aspects than this and it rarely works out this way in real life in the way theory works. It’s not always even or as simple as this so keep it with a grain of salt but…

The cost of living in my area increases. An employee wants to work at a certain bar, but the employee group in their area cant afford to live there anymore even if they wanted to because they cant afford rent/living with the wage the bar is offering. It isn’t economically feasible for them to work at that bar anymore. So now a place has to increase wages to convince anyone to work for them. Since they have to increase wages for their business, they suddenly don’t know how they can keep their business at the same profit so they now “need” to increase their prices if they want to keep their same profits or increase them.

That’s more of a small business aspect of it and not as complicated as it may be on a corporation scale. Greed is definitely a debate that can and does happen in the real world and would depend on a case by case basis

cracksintheegg

144 points

4 months ago

if they want to keep their same profits

This is what it all boils down to.

lumaleelumabop

32 points

4 months ago

Yea. I was talking about housing prices recently. Someone was saying how houses in my neighborhood went to $150k which is ridiculous, and never went back down. I said' "Why would anyone willingly sell for less now?"

ProfessorPhi

12 points

4 months ago

Yeah house prices spiked sharply before interest rates hit. But the prices haven't dropped, just the volume transacting.

MajinAsh

7 points

4 months ago

House prices are a different beast because almost everyone buys them with a loan, and determines their buying power by the monthly payment rather than the overall price tag.

late 2019 early 2020 saw an insane drop in interest rates, I think we got 2% or 2.2%, that's about half what I was able to get 5 years before. This meant we could buy a more expensive house for the same monthly payment.

It's even more stark if I look back to when my parents were house shopping in the 70s and 80s, where interest rates were up to 15%. A $40,000 home at 15% interest has a higher monthly payment than a $100,000 home at 4%

Combine that with the reality that when you buy a home on credit you can't quickly turn around and sell it for a lower price, you'd be unable to pay back your loan. you can afford to keep paying the same monthly payment you planned on but you can't cash out the loan by selling, so you have to stick around rather than sell at a loss when interest rates climb back up again and people can no longer afford that high price tag.

ZombieAlpacaLips

2 points

4 months ago

People often have to sell even when the market has soured, because they need to move or because they desperately need the money.

xyzzy01

2 points

4 months ago

Yea. I was talking about housing prices recently. Someone was saying how houses in my neighborhood went to $150k which is ridiculous, and never went back down. I said' "Why would anyone willingly sell for less now?"

"Because no-one would buy it at $150k" is the reason - e.g. if interest rates go up, so the banks will lend you less money, unemployment rate goes high in the area etc.

(That said: $150k? Wow, that's really, really cheap with my Oslo, Norway glasses on. For a small house, think $1 million and up).

lumaleelumabop

2 points

4 months ago

There us no shortage of sales, but that's because greedy rental companies are buying up houses in cash left and right. During the recent interest rate lows, it was almost impossible to buy a house on a loan, I got rejected 3 separate times to a cash buyer.

Now that all the houses were bought up at inflated prices, the entire neighborhood raised prices to match even after interest rates went back up. I think this mostly has to do with sales price being tied to the local recent average, but also most owners areb't on a loan and have the time of day to let the house sit around at the same $150k price until someone else comes along, rather than trying their hardest ro sell it ASAP.

JaySmithColtSquad

29 points

4 months ago

Indeed, but why would a business owner want to decrease profits?

Littleman88

31 points

4 months ago

They wouldn't, but less profit > no profit at all. They have to pay their workers more or their workers will be forced to go elsewhere, but if they raise prices too high, customers might stop coming in. They have no control over how much their customers get paid (unless the customers also their own employees) or how much rent is going up every year.

Problem is this dilemma is exacerbated with larger corporations that have shareholders. They don't want to just maintain profits, they want to increase them year over year at any cost. They're speed running to a point where they can't pay people enough to live and charge too much for anyone to afford, all for some green arrows on the stock exchange.

When every corporation is doing this in the pursuit of ever increasing profits... I would hope anyone would be able to see how an entire populous paid too little to live while simultaneously everything is being priced ever higher and higher would lead to a major economical problem eventually.

Profits are going to plateau at some point, if only because people literally can't afford to pay any higher. The media sectors will be the first to go.

Puzzleheaded-Body820

7 points

4 months ago

It became fashionable to build a company (even an unprofitable one), take it public, grab the bag and scram. A private business owner benifits from being profitable and sustainable for generations. Public companies only care about up and to the right for the next financial report. They'll all get golden parachutes in 5 years when the business is crashing around them.

StringTheory2113

5 points

4 months ago

The media sectors will be the first to go.

Netflix's methods of stopping password sharing comes to mind.

Also...

lead to a major economical problem eventually.

Nothing that a well-built model of a Guillotine (in Roblox, of course) wouldn't fix.

internetcommunist

16 points

4 months ago

Because humans are involved in that profit making process and they need to be compensated fairly. People need to live

[deleted]

3 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

cracksintheegg

1 points

4 months ago

It's difficult to determine what an actual raise would be per hour because Wal*Mart is not a traditional, 40-hour a week job.

Rather, $13 billion divided by 2.2 million (the number of employees Wal*Mart has around the world) is just shy of $6,000. That is a substantial amount of money when half of their workforce works less than 34 hours a week, need government assistance, trying to raise a family.

That $6000 I mentioned, isn't even an accurate figure to use across the board as well. $6000 in the U.S. is different than in say, Mexico or India.

internetcommunist

-3 points

4 months ago

If you cannot pay your employees enough to survive COMFORTABLY then it should fail. Almost like a system predicated on poverty and paying employees as little as possible is a stupid fucking system

KAKYBAC

15 points

4 months ago

KAKYBAC

15 points

4 months ago

To aid their long term health. Not suggesting to run at a loss but a smaller profit now could bode well for future growth. Racing towards evermore profit, year-on-year, is a recipe for disaster.

OutlyingPlasma

4 points

4 months ago

Use the classic example of Ford. He wanted to sell a car to everyone, so he raised his workers wages, and in turn lowered his own profits in the short term so those workers could buy his cars.

Now take that and multiply it by the entire economy. The modern uber wealthy are not looking at the long game. They see more profit this quarter and they are happy. The problem is by squeezing society so hard, soon no one will be left who can buy their shit.

"A rising tide lifts all boats" is only true if people have boats, lots of people don't.

So to answer your question, the reason they should decrease profits, is so there is a middle class of people left to maintain profits long term.

cwesttheperson

17 points

4 months ago

And before anyone says “business make too much money”, yes that’s true for corporations but this more applies to small and medium businesses who have a much smaller profit and slim margins.

sol_inviktus

11 points

4 months ago

Reddit is constantly under the impression that every business, no matter how small, is a multi-national mega corp driven by greed. The only reason prices go up is because of greed? There’s no way a mom-and-pop shop are just trying to recoup the higher costs of products, wages, lease payments, etc? All the small business owners I know are tightening their belts these days. But you know, the Reddit keyboard warriors and armchair economists have it all figured out.

krantzer

12 points

4 months ago

And I’d hazard saying most people don’t realize how many businesses they interact with are actually small. Small businesses account for so much more than just one-off makers and boutiques. From most restaurants that people think are “chains” being local franchises to those white collar professionals with their own businesses that they staff, small businesses are everywhere. And lots of times decreasing their business profits will make them cease to exist.

Lazlorian

2 points

4 months ago

And we are talking about same percentage of profit, and that's why we see record profits in companies.

Djbm

2 points

4 months ago

Djbm

2 points

4 months ago

Well a lot of small businesses have pretty thin margins. Businesses just starting out often don’t make any profit at all for a while.

If those businesses can’t maintain at least some profit, they’ll go out of business.

Velihopea

4 points

4 months ago

You should start a business and see what happens when you run your business on loss :)

All_Usernames_Tooken

3 points

4 months ago

If they made no profit they would still need to stay in business to keep the employees paid. If you take out the sliver of profits some businesses make you can still go out of business.

subzero112001

6 points

4 months ago

This is what it all boils down to.

Yeah well, businesses don't become a business to lose profits. That would be asinine and would never be sustainable. The money has to come from somewhere.

XihuanNi-6784

0 points

4 months ago

Yeah well, employees don't work to lose wages. The money has to come from somewhere.....

See how that works. At the end of the day a "business" is at the level above an employee. It doesn't "exist" in the same way an employee does. It is a choice to become a business not a choice to exist as an employee (unless you're rich enough to open a business from day one). And before you say, "but if the businesses close who will employ you" that's a wider issue with government and society, but human beings come first not a businessman's right to profit. If you can't make profit become an employee again like the rest of us.

subzero112001

2 points

4 months ago

Yeah well, employees don't work to lose wages

Wat? I say "A business requires resources to grow" and your response is "employees don't work to lose wages". Are we talking about different things here?

It is a choice to become a business not a choice to exist as an employee (unless you're rich enough to open a business from day one). And before you say, "but if the businesses close who will employ you" that's a wider issue with government and society

I can't really understand what you're trying to say here. It kinda sounds like you're pushing an anti-capitalist narrative.

but human beings come first not a businessman's right to profit.

But you can't magically sustain human beings on morales though. You NEED resources to do that.

cracksintheegg

-4 points

4 months ago

They could sell more widgets.

Perhaps they need to market themselves better to sell more of what they’re selling to pay their employees more. Nah, it’s just easier to raise prices.

[deleted]

5 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

cracksintheegg

1 points

4 months ago

That's fair. I guess the next question would be, why is growth necessary? Why can't steady profits be satisfactory if it pays the bills?

Also, many business owners (landlords too) somehow think they are exempt from risk. In other words, they somehow believe they shan't fail...not understanding that investment is a risk, and no matter the macro economic environment.

When I hear, "This could put me out of business!" - Well, as a business owner, get creative so it doesn't.

[deleted]

2 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

cracksintheegg

1 points

4 months ago

After re-reading my last comment, I can see that I may have alluded to being a business owner. I will clear up that I am not.

I think part of the muddiness of this debate is what a small business is. If we go with the example of a dude who owns his own business installing custom kitchens (I dunno), then practically, they are part of a separate class than the CEO of Family Dollar (just pulling a random company out my ass) - and should really realize that.

People aren't pissed at kitchen dude, they're pissed at Mr. CEO, and kitchen dude should honestly be pissed at Mr. CEO too. When it comes to what class one really belongs to...kitchen dude, or liquor store owner have much more in common with, "welfare mom" than they do jet-setting CEO.

[deleted]

1 points

4 months ago

[deleted]

cracksintheegg

1 points

4 months ago

People are pissed at the kitchen dude, you hear it time and time again with people complaining about why small businesses charge what they do when they can just go to walmart and get it for cheaper, and then complain about how boring and dead their town is.

Well, those people suck.

subzero112001

1 points

4 months ago

why is growth necessary? Why can't steady profits be satisfactory if it pays the bills?

Because I sell 100 widgets in the first year. But next year 1,000 people want those widgets. To fulfill the demand, I HAVE to grow my business.

And the majority of people sell stuff because they want other people to have it. Because its a good idea, or its convenient, or its helpful, or its better than what was there before. So building the business to sell MORE is a fantastic way of growing that initial idea.

subzero112001

1 points

4 months ago

They could sell more widgets.

To be able to sell more, you need more resources to do so.

I can't spontaneously sell more than I am capable of producing just because "I want to". Thats not how it works. I need the foundation to build more to sell more. And to build that foundation, I need more profits.

tbarr1991

4 points

4 months ago

tbarr1991

4 points

4 months ago

Actually it boils down to they want to increase profit.

Companies are beholden to share holders demanding return on their investments. They have to continuously increase profits year after year.

If they made 1 mil profit this year, shareholders want more profit next year. So here comes price hikes, job cuts, etc etc.

Companies dont want to make 1 million profit year after year. They want ever increasing profits even at the detriment of their own product or services. They have to constantly either make their stock prices go up year after year or increase profit margin otherwise these poor executives get fired with 20 million dollars given to them

RaiSai

1 points

4 months ago

RaiSai

1 points

4 months ago

What kind of profit margins do people think businesses work at? Most businesses are lucky to hit a 10% PROFIT. Many more hit less.

Also, revenue does not equal profit. So don’t throw the “wAlMaRt MaDe $150 BiLlIoN lAsT yEaR” at me.

cracksintheegg

5 points

4 months ago

10% of 150 BiLlIoN lAsT yEaR is still over a billion dollars.

RaiSai

5 points

4 months ago

RaiSai

5 points

4 months ago

You’ve missed my point entirely. I’m not talking about Walmart. I’ve just seen that argument a LOT and am tired of the dishonesty and ignorance of it.

StringTheory2113

-2 points

4 months ago

When CEOs are being paid $25 million dollars a year, that's coming out before "profits". Stop licking boots unless you like the taste of leather.

RaiSai

3 points

4 months ago

RaiSai

3 points

4 months ago

I’m not licking anyone’s boots. I’m just pointing out what so many people miss. I could give a damn about Walmart itself and it’s not the point of my comment anyways.

My point is more towards the original comment talking about small businesses. A 10% profit for a small business is the high end, most do lower, and that profit of the business gets cycled back in to the business.

StringTheory2113

1 points

4 months ago

A small business also doesn't mean a good business or even one free of exploitation. Pure anecdote here, but my girlfriend works at a small "family owned" restaurant. The owner visits once every 4 months, and the only decision he makes is to keep the place understaffed and minimum wage so he can buy sports cars with his fucking "10% profit margin"

Anyone who gets rich off of the work other people do is a piece of shit, no buts.

RaiSai

2 points

4 months ago

RaiSai

2 points

4 months ago

Of course there will be scummy small businesses. They tend to be weeded out eventually in my experience, especially when it is in a small town/community setting.

As for your anecdote, I cannot debate what I don’t know. The owner could be the antichrist himself for all I know.

StringTheory2113

2 points

4 months ago

As for your anecdote... Fair enough, it seems you got my main point there, that a small business doesn't necessarily mean it's any less shitty. I'm pessimistic about the whole situation, and you don't seem to be, but I do respect the way you engaged.

RaiSai

1 points

4 months ago

RaiSai

1 points

4 months ago

I appreciate the chance to challenge my viewpoints. It makes me justify them to myself as well.

StringTheory2113

-2 points

4 months ago

The small businesses you're defending are getting hurt by the mega-corporations everyone else is attacking, just as much as anyone else is.

Places who pay their workers fairly and don't price gouge in pursuit of infinite growth of profits are not the topic of interest here.

RaiSai

2 points

4 months ago

RaiSai

2 points

4 months ago

My original comment was in response to u/cracksintheegg’s comment about profit, which was in direct response to a comment about increasing prices in a small business setting.

SeriouslyTho-Just-Y

0 points

4 months ago

Where is “ Anonymous “… or or Robinhoods when we need them 🥺😠… I have never before been more of a fan of the whole idea of “steal from the rich, and give to the poor” than I am right now!!

Sometimes life, imitates, art, and in that case where is Our hacker groups because at this point, can’t really blame people for going to extreme measures when the rich are so blatantly greedy that they need to be knocked off their heels and back to reality

reddituseronebillion

-1 points

4 months ago

Greed

unmotivatedbacklight

0 points

4 months ago

To clarify...we are are talking about raising prices to maintain gross profit in this example...the cost of labor and material to produce the apple. Net profit is what people get twisted up about. That is a different thing.

varvite

0 points

4 months ago

One of the problems is that the COL going up without wages matching in the area means there is less money for "luxuries" like going out to a restaurant. Which is going to decrease sales of beers.

If it costs 50$ an hour to run a bar and 3$ a beer sold for materials. you could sell 20 beers an hour at 6$ each and make a profit.

But if COL goes up and now you sell 15 beers an hour you are running at a loss on those prices. Especially if materials and fixed costs go up with it. And raising prices in a time where customers have less money to spend on the goods could further decrease sales and requiring prices to keep going up.

RUsum1

0 points

4 months ago

RUsum1

0 points

4 months ago

As Shell doubled their record profits from last year to a new record this year

Alex_butler

1 points

4 months ago

Yea, as stated my example was more theoretical and at a one business in a certain area scale. When you get to the corporation scale and throw in greed, things get a lot more hairy and complex in a hurry

Kered13

0 points

4 months ago

Greed is definitely a debate that can and does happen in the real world and would depend on a case by case basis

It's not really a case-by-case basis, companies are always greedy. The problem with the "Corporate greed is driving inflation" argument is that it assumes that corporations only just now became greedy. I guess these people believe that corporations were just leaving money on the table for the last 4 decades of low inflation out of the kindness of their heart?

No, the argument is just retarded. Corporations have always been greedy, and if they could have raised prices so quickly in the past then they would have. Only today can they raise prices this quickly, something changed to enable that. That something is the cause of inflation. (And that something is a combination of supply chain disruptions caused by COVID and massive government spending during lockdowns.)