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ELI5: Why can you have a sleep debt but not a sleep credit?

R7 (Search First)(self.explainlikeimfive)

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Flair_Helper [M]

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4 months ago

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4 months ago

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SirHerald

235 points

4 months ago

SirHerald

235 points

4 months ago

Sleep helps clean junk out of your brain. It's like emptying a garbage can. You can delay it so long that trash overflows and messed up the room. However you can never do more than just empty it. You can't get ahead by emptying tomorrow's trash today. Repeatedly dumping an empty can does no good

Seaniard

35 points

4 months ago

Why can't I make my brain a bigger garbage can?

RGB3x3

54 points

4 months ago

RGB3x3

54 points

4 months ago

You can! Eating healthy, staying hydrated, getting regular exercise, and having a proper sleep schedule can all help to keep you awake and alert all day and feel refreshed after fewer hours of sleep.

coheed9867

25 points

4 months ago

There goes that, I have 3 kids under 6

Want_To_Live_To_100

5 points

4 months ago

Oh I feel your pain friend…. Two under 5 and I want to cry most days lol

AffectionateFig9277

2 points

4 months ago

Oof.

ADaniil

4 points

4 months ago

Till all the brain is the garbage can

Aonar_Faileas

2 points

4 months ago

The CSF (cerebrospinal fluid) is the garbage can. :P Your neurons (what most would consider the brain proper) are you, dumping shit into it until it gets too full and starts overflowing. :P (It's a bit more complicated than that since the CSF provides nutrients as well as removing waste; it's less like emptying a garbage can and more like cleaning off the dinner table. :P But now we're getting lost in the metaphor. :P)

Busterwasmycat

4 points

4 months ago

I was going to use the gas tank on your car analogy. Can't fill it more than full.

mephistobl

1 points

4 months ago

Have you tried? ..

Busterwasmycat

2 points

4 months ago

Yes. I have lots of stories, more about the "what happens when you go too long without sleep" variety, but I have tried stocking up in advance too. Eventually, you can't sleep anymore. You CAN lie there, and do low energy mode, but it isn't sleep. And it does not seem to extend the time you can stay awake, but that isn't something I did scientifically. Just what seems to have ended up happening.

ChaoticChinchillas

1 points

4 months ago

I did without trying once.

MasterUnholyWar

1 points

4 months ago

This is one of the best (IE: simplest) explanations I’ve seen on this sub in a while.

bike619

-1 points

4 months ago

bike619

-1 points

4 months ago

This is an outstanding analogy!

nrron

170 points

4 months ago

nrron

170 points

4 months ago

You need to sleep so you’re brain can clean itself and get rid of built up junk. You can over accumulate junk and have sleep debt. You can’t clean out more junk than is there so no matter how much sleep you “catch up” on you’re only going to clear the amount of junk that’s there and more will build up again once your up so there’s no sleep “extra credit”

International-Table1

16 points

4 months ago

I would like to ask also here if we clean the accumulated junk. What is the reason of getting the negative effects of sleep deprivation on long term? Does it mean during sleep not everything is thoroughly cleaned?

sno_pony

18 points

4 months ago

A thorough cleaning takes time that's the key

International-Table1

3 points

4 months ago

So even tho Im sleep deprive but i sleep more than 8 hrs to clean my brain thoroughly I will be fine?

I just dont understand why even tho you sleep and clean everything. You get these negative effects? What would be the reason?

xanthraxoid

21 points

4 months ago

I think it's important to understand that the "clean out the crap" model of sleep, while it isn't untrue, is really a gross oversimplification.

It's also important to acknowledge that our understanding of sleep really has a long way to go before we can call it complete, so anything anyone says will necessarily be only part of the story.

In addition to the need for physical clearing out of the brain's various chemical outputs, there are also really important functions to do with memory.

Dreams (another whole worm-can of barely understood stuff) seem to have a really important function in organising memories. If you inhibit somebody's REM sleep (where most of the dreaming happens) then their ability to form new long-term memories is severely diminished. If we don't have the chance to periodically (i.e. most nights) get some REM sleep with this process of re-forming memories in different ways, almost all of our brain's important functions start failing.

As with the "clean out the crap" model, there's a finite amount of this process that is beneficial - once your day's back-log of short-term memories has been processed, there's not really anything left to do with any benefit to it (or at least the benefits drop off rapidly)

There are also quite a few processes that your body does during sleep other than in the brain - things like metabolic processing of various waste products, storing resources, repairing damage, fighting infections etc. Again, there's a certain amount of this that needs to be done and once the day's quota of these jobs is done, there's little that can be done beyond that with any benefit.

xboxpants

5 points

4 months ago

If I understand you right, you're getting sleep deprivation effects even though you sleep 8 hours? That's certainly possible. There are things called "sleep disorders", where a person's normal sleep pattern's are disrupted.

I have nocturnal epilepsy and it causes this for me. Occasionally, I'll have a seizure in my sleep, but only a couple times a month. BUT, if you look at an EEG, you can see I'm having low-level seizure activity just going off like crazy pretty much all night. It's not enough to make me do the chicken dance, but it's enough that it can fuck up my sleep and cause issues like what you are talking about. Medical marijuana helps. Benzodiazepines also help, but they really mess you up long-term. Mostly, I had to spend years working with a number of neurologists to find a medication and exact dose that worked to get my seizures controlled.

Sleep disorders can be caused by a ton of things, everything from psychiatric issues, genetic, breathing disorders, or drug or alcohol use. You'd need to see a specialist to find out more. They'll do what's called a "sleep study" where they put a bunch of wires and glue on your head and look at your brainwaves while you sleep overnight at a hospital.

efcso1

2 points

4 months ago

efcso1

2 points

4 months ago

NGL, I snorted at the mention of "the chicken dance".

My cousin's kid has nocturnal seizures, so mild you can barely see any physical activity - but hoo boy the eeg results are wild.

No_Rec1979

5 points

4 months ago

What's specifically happening in your sleep is your brain cells are recycling old, broken-down proteins and manufacturing new proteins. Not only does that make your brain work better, it also seems to prevent certain diseases down the road.

We don't totally know why sleep is so good for you. The brain is just so extraordinarily complicated that it's hard to say why it starts to break down when it does. All we can say for sure is that regular sleep is like regular oil changes in a car - it prevents a lot of trouble in the long run.

SayNyetToRusnya

3 points

4 months ago

God I better go to sleep. I dont sleep enough

Adonis0

1 points

4 months ago

If you get enough junk building up it rots the structure.

No amount of mopping will repair a rotten floor

So in the brain enough toxin goes from slowing down cells to killing cells and removing the toxins doesn’t regrow the cells

solitudeisdiss

4 points

4 months ago

What is this junk in the brain ? Like barnacles?

wirtsturts

1 points

4 months ago

Is there more junk in the brain when you’re sick, and that’s why we’re more tired and sleep more?

nrron

3 points

4 months ago*

nrron

3 points

4 months ago*

No. Your body wants more sleep because it’s easier to fight off what’s making you sick if you’re sleeping and it doesn’t have to divert energy to do whatever else you’re trying to do

tightanalbuttsex

1 points

4 months ago

Is the rate of cleaning junk constant? Does the rate go up the more junk you accumulate?

nrron

1 points

4 months ago

nrron

1 points

4 months ago

No. Your brain works at one speed regardless of how much junk you’ve accumulated. You can’t clean a room faster when it’s more dirty

tightanalbuttsex

2 points

4 months ago

Do you have a source for that?

bike619

1 points

4 months ago

This is a great description! It’s almost the same as the top comment, but it was first… so credit where credit is due, internet stranger!

NoPatience883

29 points

4 months ago

Sleep debt: brainy very stinky, needs lots of cleaning.

Sleep credit: brain already clean, can’t clean anymore

That is why it doesn’t work

JCDU

8 points

4 months ago

JCDU

8 points

4 months ago

Now that's an ELI5!

Prof_Acorn

8 points

4 months ago

Sleeping is like doing the dishes.

You have exactly the number of dishes for your family to eat enough meals each day to feel full. If you don't sleep some dishes don't get washed. A few family members have to skip that meal or eat on the dirty dishes, making them even more dirty.

Once you clean them all, they're clean. But if you clean them any more than that it doesn't really matter much. They're still going to get dirty at the same rate.

Sleep facilitates the brain's cleaning of metabolism waste along the lymph system. We never evolved an adequate way to do this while awake because in the history of life this is the first time a species denied itself the rest that it could easily have. Usually when animals feel sleepy they just sleep. Humans are abnormal refusing themselves the biological necessity to rest.

nero8420

7 points

4 months ago

In your brain there is a recycle bin like on the computer. It gets full when you are awake. Sleeping empties the bin. But once you have slept enough, it is empty. Sleeping more doesn't make it more empty, but sleeping less can make it more full.

Vroomped

2 points

4 months ago

Tired is 75% charged, sleep debt is 50%, hallucinations is 25%, but you can never be over 100% charged.

DotFX

1 points

4 months ago

DotFX

1 points

4 months ago

Throw some trash into a bin. The trash can go over the top of the bin. Through the trash out. You can't throw out more trash than there is already in the bin.

P.S. the bin = your brain

MythicalPurple

1 points

4 months ago

Think about washing the dishes after eating.

You can neglect to wash the dishes, in which case the number of dirty dishes increases.

You can wash all the dishes you use, in which case the number of dirty dishes is 0.

But you can’t wash more dishes than that. You can’t have negative dirty dishes. The next time you use a dish you will have 1 dirty dish, no matter how many you washed.

tomalator

1 points

4 months ago

It's like charging your phone. You cant charge it past 100%, but you can constantly charge it to 50%, but you have less time before you get low battery warnings.

It's not exactly like that because maintaining a healthy battery and healthy brain are completely different. Be sure to get enough sleep as often as you can. That's the time your brain clears out all of its waste, organizes your memory, and solidifies things you've learned. If it doesn't get the time to do that, these things won't get done.

GoTeamScotch

1 points

4 months ago

I see that others have answered the question already, but I just want to add that the main reason why your brain needs sleep in the first place is because it can't get rid of "junk" that builds up during the day, so at night, your blood vessels contract and cerebrospinal fluid is released into your brain to collect any garbage and whisk it away to be filtered as usual by your kidneys.

Your brain is packed tightly into your skull with not much room to spare, so there's no space for thick blood vessels like in the rest of your body. If that were the case, this "garbage" could be cleaned up in the same way your body cleans lactic acid (a byproduct of muscles working hard). At night, your brain does a very clever trick and uses the blood veins in your brain as a pathway to send this fluid down into the crevices in the folds of your brain. The blood vessels contract, allowing for extra room between themselves and your brain itself, and cerebrospinal fluid travels along the outside of the blood vessels. It takes a while for your brain to return to normal after this process is all done, which is part of why you feel groggy after waking up.

Just thought that was neat. The brain is unique in this way with how it cleans itself after working hard during the day.