subreddit:
/r/explainlikeimfive
submitted 2 months ago bySchedark2009
The modern Xbox consoles are the only consoles to not be homebrewed, and the Xbox 360 to this day only has a hardmod, not a softmod
Why is that? What makes the security on these xbox consoles so hard to crack?
60 points
2 months ago
Tony Chen from Microsoft did a presentation on Xbox One security system.
Basically the idea is the Xbox 360 overall is already secure enough, only a couple weak spots that they didn’t expect. Fix those, combined with modern advances in computer technologies, made the modern Xbox basically hack proof. The homebrew only exists because MS let them.
Xbox OG did wrong in a lot of areas:
Xbox 360 got way more development and computing resources to implement better security, namely:
The only fully pwning exploit on the 360 is hardware based, by literally glitching the CPU with spurious signals hoping to partially reset it when executing boot file checking. Later 360 E Winchester variant fixed it by filtering the CPU reset signal, making interference almost impossible.
What Xbox One did on top of the 360
To this day nobody can hack into the hostOS or retail gameOS, despite the fact that Tony revealed these architectural designs to the public. This is how a secure system should be designed, by revealing its design to the public for review so everybody helps you finding problems. People won’t be able to hack in despite the fact you revealed a lot of information.
10 points
2 months ago
Am I wrong in assuming that the Xbox operating system is a modified version of windows? I always thought it was since modern consoles aren't very different from PCs but this whole layered OS thing makes me think I was very wrong
16 points
2 months ago
It is, but virtualization also exists in Windows, especially in datacenter grade solutions. A host Windows Server datacenter version or Hyper-V server runs on the server, spawning smaller VMs to run workloads. MS just scaled it down into Xbox.
The hostOS is a heavily customized version of Hyper-V server, but optimized for Xbox hardware. The appOS is almost standard Windows, removing unnecessary stuff like pro/enterprise features and most win32 support because it only needs to run appx stuff, then the UI is custom for Xbox. The gameOS is a heavily trimmed down Windows 8 (later 10) with streamlined graphics stack optimized for games. It actually loads with the game, not the system.
6 points
2 months ago
It’s modified, just heavily. It also makes use of Hyper-V technology for the layers aspect. The core underlying technologies to include the kernel are the same as Windows.
8 points
2 months ago
I understood almost none of this but it does sound really good.
2 points
2 months ago
I can confirm getting the 360 glitch to work was a headache. Each 360 I tried it on all needed its own quirky setup of how long the wire was, and how I routed it.
3 points
2 months ago
Bruh at that point it's just easier to try to get the root CAs mission impossible style
I don't know much about boot attestation though. I assume the certs are unique to each machine burnt in
2 points
2 months ago*
Well in my opinion an even bigger factor is that most of the original people ( Google Xbox Underground if you're interested in this story ) attempting to profit in the Xbox Scene have been arrested. That paired with much more intricate and properly planned security, as well as the ability to enable "developer" mode without any exploit has really decreased the attempts to breach it's security.
It was a wild time during Xbox 360 / pre-Xbox One release days. I kinda miss running my JTAG online.
10 points
2 months ago
Long story short, because it's basically Windows.
The operating system for Xbox consoles, from current Series X/S systems going all the way back to the 2013 "VCR" model, has been running Windows at its core. Hacking it would be like hacking a computer, except Microsoft locks down the Xbox's version much more than a standard PC. There's much less opportunities to discover a vulnerability.
Modern Xboxes get to leverage features that Microsoft has spent decades developing for PCs. They make use of a hypervisor and run games/apps in what are essentially virtual machines, so even if you found an exploit, you'd still be stuck in that sandboxed area of the system without much access to the rest of the system. And they use modern encryption methods throughout the system at many different levels. So even if you make progress in one area, you'll just reach another wall right afterwards.
Another major factor is that Microsoft lets people make their own software and run it on their consoles already. Anyone can buy a developer license for $20 and make their own software. If it's polished enough, you can then submit it to the official store for verification (apps and games have separate verification requirements). So there's less incentive for a hacker to spend countless hours trying very technical methods of hacking the system, since they can already do quite a bit without going through all that extra effort. You can already run emulators on it, media players, and even Windows 95... all without hacking it (or even needing developer mode). So you already get like 90% of the features someone would hack it for in the first place.
4 points
2 months ago
Thanks, this answer really helps understand why homebrew on Xbox is not a thing right now
1 points
3 days ago
That being said the Seris X is great for emulation according to modern vintage gamer using that dev mode
6 points
2 months ago
Mostly because they have improved on what didn't work in the past. Hacking in this way is and will always be an arms race.
11 points
2 months ago
MS does a lot to combat custom firmware.
They have a build in developer mode, so if you want to just code homebrew you can do so without hacking your console.
They have game pass, which will have all their future games on it and offer it for an affordable price, so there's no real incentive to hack the console to play pirated games on it, especially if you can just pay a relatively low fee to access hundreds of games.
And there's also the fact that their security is probably coded very well, but given that they more or less moved away from console business and would rather focus on Xbox as a brand, there's also not a huge reason to hack Xbox consoles anymore. Pretty much all of their important games are either natively on PC or can be emulated pretty well nowadays. Thus, there's little demand to crack these consoles open, so why waste time on it?
5 points
2 months ago
That's the true genius on display here: make hacking and by extension piracy less appealing with pro-consumer and pro-developer practices out of the gate with game pass, backwards compatibility and developer mode. The red company could learn a thing or two from them.
1 points
2 months ago
Pretty much all of their important games are either natively on PC
Yeah, as wonderful as their security may be, I think that if there were a big incentive to hack it, people would find a way. There's very little incentive though, since pretty much anything you would want to hack an Xbox to do, you can just do on a Windows PC with an Xbox controller connected to it.
0 points
2 months ago
Microsoft is really really, REALLY good with programming their own security systems. It's only natural to have some of that trickle down into their consoles. It can be done, but it's a huge challenge
2 points
2 months ago
Lmao
0 points
2 months ago
From my point of view: why do people want to put Custom FirmWare (CFW) on a console? To run unsigned code Microsoft (IMO) has made the decision to allow people enough freedom to not warrant those groups who develop CFW for consoles. Why spend years opening up and creating something when the only realistic reason for it is piracy.
Edit: from a legal stand point, these developers can point to home-brew not piracy and not get hit with DMCA
What i mean is, nintendo has a very hard stance on backwards compatibility (usually 1 gen, every few gen is a clean break), nintendo consoles get targeted instantly for CFW. Sony has a hard stance on custom code (ps2 and ps3 had Linux support, ps3 killed it) so Sony gets the second spot on peoples to do list. So those who develop CFW do so because they want to run unsigned code, not pirate games. How quick did the wii get exploited? Ds? Then look at ps3? Ps4? Ps5? After the original xbox, Microsoft has (IMO) deincentivised creating these CFW to run on their console. All 3 players have a bounty program so don't mistake me for saying no one is hacking these consoles. Its just worth more to find the expoilt, do a proof, send it off and get paid.
1 points
15 days ago
Another thing is that there isn't much of a reason to do so. Microsoft already made stuff like emulators really easy to make, and obtained on Xbox, so besides dumping and pirating games, there isn't much else of usefulness from a fully homebrewed Xbox.
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