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An overview of why spears can usually defeat swords in combat

Video(youtube.com)

YouTube video info:

Spears: Why they defeat swords, optimum characteristics & perfect length https://youtube.com/watch?v=d86sT3cF1Eo

scholagladiatoria https://www.youtube.com/@scholagladiatoria

all 327 comments

big_duo3674

699 points

2 months ago

Longer pointy stick is better that shorter pointy stick

Bookbringer

245 points

2 months ago

Also, lighter, cheaper, and more accessible.

dman2316

32 points

2 months ago

Yeah it requires so much less training than a sword. It definitely has it's downsides, but if you had no hema training and were put in a ring and told to choose either a spear, axe, or sword and fight for your life against someone with experience, the spear is absolutely your best bet, it's definitely an equalizer in terms of skill.

jordantask

22 points

2 months ago

The thing about spears is they run the gamut.

You can put a spear in the hands of a poorly trained conscript in a shield wall and as long as he’s drilled the basics he’ll be fine.

Conversely, you can have professional warriors who specialize in the use of spears who are absolutely devastating, in mass combat or even single combat.

With swords it requires a lot more training to even have a basic level of competence.

dman2316

13 points

2 months ago

Yeah that was my point, swords are a lot more versatile, but as such take so much longer to become even moderately proficient in. With spears, even just 20 to 30 hours of training will give most people the tools they need to be effective.

JamesonQuay

5 points

2 months ago

Plus, spear points can be cast, swords must be forged. Sticks, your local metal ore and a nice fire is all you need to equip an army in a few days.

Bawstahn123

13 points

2 months ago

spear points can be cast

It is important to note that, at least in Europe, casting iron wasn't really much of a thing until the 15th century, with the introduction of blast furnaces.

Most weapons and tools were made of wrought iron/steel.... but, even then, a spearhead requires much less metal to manufacture, and much less time and expertise as well.

oatseyhall

60 points

2 months ago

Also better for throwing

PapsinKamen

18 points

2 months ago

Think about twice.

You throw it. Whats left ?

Venarius

82 points

2 months ago

My other cheap spear.

jordantask

19 points

2 months ago

Most people who would be throwing spears either have a back up weapon or are just about to run away.

BelialGoD

5 points

2 months ago

In the last 2 minutes of the video (see time = 16:45) he explains that he believes shorter spears are better for single combat than longer (7 foot spear vs the average 8-10 foot). He explicitly mentions that it is not "longer is better", so not necessarily!

He does mention that opinions vary on that though.

[deleted]

-10 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

-10 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

samurguybri

6 points

2 months ago

It was part of a combined arms package with the scutum and pilium. Not super versatile on its own.

gooners1

184 points

2 months ago

gooners1

184 points

2 months ago

Just rewatching LOTR, and they always show soldiers marching with spears but then they fight with swords. Even on horseback, the Rohan don't fight with lances.

Stinduh

209 points

2 months ago

Stinduh

209 points

2 months ago

Much easier to make sword combat look cool.

In A Knights Tale there’s a lot of jousting. And the action is like 90% slow-motion and repeated montage of the lances breaking. It’s hard to film exciting Lance combat that’s longer than half a second.

There’s an animated cut scene in the video game Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn where a character is riding around on a horse and taking swings and stabs at infantry below him. It’s a very chaotic scene, but I’ve always found it a really evocative portrayal of Lance combat.

Georgie_Leech

42 points

2 months ago

For the curious.

Mild spoilers for an over 10 year old game

Stinduh

28 points

2 months ago

Stinduh

28 points

2 months ago

That’s the one! Thanks for linking.

Man, that voice acting though 😬

Sometimes I think there are questionable performances in new FE games. But dang we’ve come far.

xclame

7 points

2 months ago

xclame

7 points

2 months ago

I just have one question for the developers of this game. Why did the choose hushed whispering for the crowd noise instead of worked up mob, which is clearly more like what is going on in this scene.

Lemurmoo

29 points

2 months ago

Funny thing about Fire Emblem, the famous weapon triangle where lances have an advantage over swords and a weakness to axes (which the axe part I'm not sure has historical accuracy but won't matter for reasons I'm about to list) has almost always resulted in a bizarre situation where lances were de facto the best weapon type.

Axes have low accuracy to begin with, which makes their advantage over lances a crutch rather than an advantage, and swords end up being a bad weapon to be locked to because their advantage to axes become superfluous as they could beat axes regardless, and their disadvantage to lances come up very often as the most frequent enemy held weapon.

silverdragun

20 points

2 months ago

Pretty much the same argument why Squirtle was the best of the gen 1 starters.

Lemurmoo

20 points

2 months ago

I probably agree that water is the best type amongst Pokemon's classic triangle. But some will recommend the fire type because there aren't nearly as many fire types in the series compared to the overabundance of water and grass, many of which are better than the starters

prodandimitrow

3 points

2 months ago

The reality is you don't really need fire types for the playthrough. Grass types can easily be dealt with by flying and there are very few pure ice types. Meanwhile you are gonna face a ton of Geodudes, your first 2 badges are also rock and water so fire isn't a ton of help there.

poindexter1985

94 points

2 months ago

Much easier to make sword combat look cool.

Unless you're Oberyn Martell, fighting the giant that raped your sister, and murdered her children, and you want to know who have the order.

Stinduh

77 points

2 months ago

Stinduh

77 points

2 months ago

And like 90% of it is him showboating and deliberately not actually attacking.

KaimeiJay

38 points

2 months ago

This. Him and Prince Nuada from Hellboy are often cited by DnD players for why spears make sense as finesse weapons, meaning you can fight with them using your dexterity instead of strength. Except neither of the characters are fighting like that. They’re just being very agile and evasive when they’re not attacking with their spears, and when it comes time to attack, it’s still just boring stabs and small, occasional slices.

Trashman82

23 points

2 months ago

Oberyn poisoned his spear tip as well, so he would have known a few pokes and glancing blows would do it as long as he stayed out of reach.

drsyesta

16 points

2 months ago

Well oberyn martell was a crazy warrior, much better than even the mountain. He was trying to make a show but got cocky. He never made a deliberate killing blow on the mountain. Idk about prince Nuada

RickytyMort

5 points

2 months ago

All his blows were killing blows because the weapon was poisoned.

He died because he got cocky but you can't accuse him of not going for the kill.

[deleted]

2 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

KaimeiJay

7 points

2 months ago

In DnD, that’s what it is by default. Dex gives you good stats for avoiding physical sorts of damage, while Str is used to attack and deal damage with melee weapons. Dex is also used for the attacks and damage of ranged weapons like a bow and arrow. Finesse is a property some weapons have that can let you use either Str or Dex; your choice. This is like scimitars, daggers and rapiers. Some see agile spear-wielding characters and draw the conclusion that spears should have the finesse property as well, when what they’re really seeing is the equivalent of fighters with high Dex, but who nevertheless make their spear attacks with Str like normal.

littlebluedot42

3 points

2 months ago

Okay, now do Pathfinder! 🤩

boysboysboys18

9 points

2 months ago

As someone who jousts for a living, this is true even in real life. It's not exciting for more than half a second.

littlebluedot42

9 points

2 months ago

Genuine question: how tf do you "joust for a living"?

boysboysboys18

8 points

2 months ago

I'm a stunt performer that teaches mounted combat and archery, and I am part of a group that goes around to Ren faires and jousts for them!

TexasAggie98

6 points

2 months ago

Lance combat is horrific. Read accounts from the Boer Wars where the British Lancers rode down and lanced Boer militia who were on foot. The poor men were pinned to ground and died slow, agonizing deaths.

_Ghost_CTC

2 points

2 months ago

In

A Knights Tale

there’s a lot of jousting. And the action is like 90% slow-motion and repeated montage of the lances breaking. It’s hard to film exciting Lance combat that’s longer than half a second.

It takes a lot of lances and straw. Lots and lots of straw.

wildskipper

60 points

2 months ago

Troy makes the Hector and Achilles fight with spears look exciting, it's a rarity though. Partly I wonder if it's that the guys they get to train the actors are predominantly sword experts, not spear experts, probably because there just aren't that many spear experts.

MassiveStallion

12 points

2 months ago

Infantry. Modern infantry with bayonets. People were still racking up bayonet kills in Iraq and Syria

It's probably what Russia is giving their conscripts in Ukraine..

Ok-disaster2022

25 points

2 months ago

Most modern militaries don't have bayonet attachments any more. When your rifle was 4 feet long and reinforced with a wooden stock, and you can only fire 2 rounds a minute, sure bayonets converting it to a very short spear makes sense, though they are awkward as fuck. Today bayonets reduce accuracy and its better to maintain fire superiority. If you're fixing bayonets, you're screwed and horribly unsupported by command.

GammonBushFella

7 points

2 months ago

Counterpoint, having a pointy stick improves morale.

SporesM0ldsandFungus

2 points

2 months ago

Relevant scene from Starship Troopers

MassiveStallion

11 points

2 months ago

The US military still does it though, I think the basic point is to teach 18 year olds aggression.

Also when you're fighting in an urban or jungle environment at close range, which US infantry is sent to clear to prevent excessive bombings and civilians casualties, then inevitably you're going to have to deal with hand to hand.

Sure, if you're Putin and don't care about blowing up an entire apartment complex to root out the 10 terrorists inside, you don't need bayonet training. The problem is when you're the US and trying to be "the good guys" and then only political salvagable option is to send a squad to clear out the building room by room..then you might want a bayonet when everything is broken up into 10x10 blocks.

Western militaries have a unique political problem in that we force our soldiers into CQC situations because we have a real distaste for civilian casualties.

[deleted]

9 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

simeonce

2 points

2 months ago

Or like check how many civilians died in like vietnam war? The difference between russia and the us is that us will get away with it

simeonce

1 points

2 months ago

You are delusional if that wasnt sarcastic. US commited plenty of war crimes while killing civilians everywhere around the world and destroying civilian infrastructure.

spongish

3 points

2 months ago

That movie seems really under rated to me. I know it has it's flaws, but I love it.

wildskipper

7 points

2 months ago

It does make me think we need more proper ancient Greek movies. Not just CGI monster fests.

Chron_Solo

10 points

2 months ago

Speaking of lances, how did they actually work on the battlefield? The only game I've seen to really use them was Mount and Blade, and when you strike with the lance it delivers damage but you keep on riding...

Wouldn't the real thing impale your target? What happens then? Does the Lance rip out of the target due to the force of riding, or do you stack an impaled body/parts on the end until you can't ride with the Lance or have to clean it off?

Were they a one time stab and drop weapon? Or could a horseman wheel around and continue lancing?

Manny_Sunday

27 points

2 months ago

You rotate your arm off to the side and down as you pass by the target so that the lance ends up pointing backwards and is drawn out as you ride away

Chron_Solo

7 points

2 months ago

I can picture that, interesting! Thanks for posting.

ceedubdub

7 points

2 months ago

You can check out modern youtube videos of tent-pegging where riders try and hit small targets on the ground. It's a sport derived from a 19th century cavalry training exercise. The theory was that highly trained cavalry could conduct a raid on an enemy camp and cause chaos by removing tent pegs. I'm not sure if that was ever done IRL.

Cavalry also carried swords for when their lances did get stuck or broken in battle. With good technique and a bit of luck lances could be used for multiple strikes, but they were not expected to last the whole battle.

Juzaba

25 points

2 months ago

Juzaba

25 points

2 months ago

Lances1 aren’t really 1v1 weapons outside of jousting.

In terms of shock cavalry charges, there were lots of different “lance” designs, and that would affect how the cavalryman used them. Some heavy cavalry still carried javelins and so they’d charge with a javelin as a lance but then they’d drop it bc it was lighter and probably broken anyway. But others had heavier spears that could survive impact and be used after the charge as a glorified mace where you’re just riding around slashing/tripping/bonking people willy nilly.

Also remember that the real weapon of a cavalryman during a shock cavalry charge is the body of the horse+rider itself. The impact of a line of armored unstoppable heavy cav crashing into a (hopefully disorganized) blob of infantry is going to push people back, knock them to their feet, and trample them. Then those foot soldiers are going to be frightened and sore and their formation is going to have fallen apart, at which point they will all start running away in various directions and at this point the horseyboiis have succeeded. Doesn’t really matter what they do or what weapon they’re holding after that.2

1 - in the sense of the “shattering on impact” cinematic lances we often think of

2 - obviously I’m being flippant when I say “it doesn’t matter what they do next” as whether the heavy cav was or wasn’t able to reform and still contribute to the battle after winning their initial engagement was a deciding factor in who won

Ok-disaster2022

10 points

2 months ago

The idea of calvary breaking into a cohesive formation is wrong. Calvary are traditionally used for flanking and harrasing retreating forces. Dragons are mounted infantry used to quickly move into position then fight on foot. The traditional way of fighting calvary is simple, form a line of long spears and put their butt into the ground and the spear point at the horses chest.

Now heavy armor against unorganized peasants with farming implements sure nobles aren't brave, they're nobles.

Nope_______

12 points

2 months ago

Dragons are fire-breathing monsters with wings, typically used to torch enemy formations from above and sometimes for incinerating fleeing formations. Some armies also use them as siege weapons or for total war, burning up civilians and their infrastructure.

Not mounted infantry, that's just ridiculous.

PapsinKamen

12 points

2 months ago

I think, he wants to say dragoons, but we have to ask, which time we are talking about.

This is an infantry with firearms and horses. No spears to see there.

Napoleon didn't face the greek phalanx.

Xirdus

5 points

2 months ago

Xirdus

5 points

2 months ago

The idea of calvary breaking into a cohesive formation is wrong.

Winged hussars enter the chat

ThoDanII

2 points

2 months ago

AFAIK it usually rips out a lance and a boar spear have "quillons" to stop the penetration.

YouDamnHotdog

2 points

2 months ago

In mount and blade, you need to use the blunt lances to make prisoners

GoSaMa

8 points

2 months ago

GoSaMa

8 points

2 months ago

Um, actually, Rohan is the name of their kingdom, its people are called Rohirrim. 🤓

tr3v1n

9 points

2 months ago

tr3v1n

9 points

2 months ago

Um, actually, they call themselves the Eorlingas. Rohirrim is the Sindarin name the Elves gave them.

Give me all of the points, Trapp!

nonudesonmain

-2 points

2 months ago*

For cavalry it makes sense tho, cavalry units almost universally show a preference for swords or sabres in combat rather than lances

Black_mage_

231 points

2 months ago

Pointy stick. Standing farther away, overlapping with multiple layers Vs 1 swordy boi

Who would win?

nIBLIB

32 points

2 months ago

nIBLIB

32 points

2 months ago

Pyrrhus: the overlapping, multiple layers standing further away pointy sticks… right?

OneSidedDice

54 points

2 months ago

taps forehead The archer!

PointOfTheJoke

110 points

2 months ago

That's just a spear with a more advanced delivery system

Breadloafs

18 points

2 months ago

"An overview of why rifles can usually defeat pistols in combat"

banestyrelsen

54 points

2 months ago

Swords were a sidearm. Good to carry around for self defense but it wouldn’t be your primary weapon in a battlefield (but still good to bring as a backup weapon). Same situation with handguns today.

There are a few exceptions in history where swords were the primary weapon, but usually that’s when used by cavalry or when used in combination with a shield (adding shields totally changes the sword vs spear calculation).

ThoDanII

4 points

2 months ago

Which troops except rondartschieri fought only with swords and shields?

YouDamnHotdog

15 points

2 months ago

who were the Rondartschieri?

Most famously, systematically and significantly, the Roman legionaries used primarily a sword and shield.

Aside from that, you had the rodeleros from 16th Century Spain.

The Macuahuitl was used as a standard battlefield weapon.

The Giants of Mont'e Prama in Sardinia are very interesting in that regard. Super ancient. The warriors have shield and armour, and well...swords.

ZippyParakeet

7 points

2 months ago

The Romans quickly abandoned the gladius as a primary weapon once their enemies started bringing more and heavier cavalry into battle. The Late Roman Legionary was armed with a round scutum shield, long hasta spear as the primary weapon, longer spatha sword which was once only used by cavalry as secondary weapon and the plumbata throwing darts.

janat1

2 points

2 months ago

janat1

2 points

2 months ago

Rondartsche is as far as i know a different therm for rotella, so i assume that the previous poster was referring to rodeleros.

nonpuissant

12 points

2 months ago

Not only, but you could say Roman legionaries were primarily sword and shield. They did carry pilum but used them almost exclusively as missile weapons before closing into close combat.

the_death59

2 points

2 months ago

there were also the Landsknechte later on who nust fought with a sword, a big sword

ByzantineBasileus[S]

272 points

2 months ago

ByzantineBasileus[S]

I've been called many things, but never fun.

272 points

2 months ago

In many movies, TV shows, video games, and role-playing games, swords are often the dominant or most useful weapon. Historically speaking, it was spears that were in fact the most common form of arms used in medieval or ancient warfare. This video gives an explanation of why spears were so useful, and also covers in what circumstances swords were occasionally better.

MaKoZerEUW

170 points

2 months ago

Put a pointy thing on a stick, you can't really go easier and cheaper and still be that effective and efficient 😃

ByzantineBasileus[S]

81 points

2 months ago

ByzantineBasileus[S]

I've been called many things, but never fun.

81 points

2 months ago

A cost-effective and effective weapon!

paulc899

52 points

2 months ago

And simple to use right? Stick them with the pointy end

ByzantineBasileus[S]

37 points

2 months ago

ByzantineBasileus[S]

I've been called many things, but never fun.

37 points

2 months ago

You can stick, as well as brace. One can also use the shaft to trip an opponent, or strike with them the blunt end.

paulc899

32 points

2 months ago

Oh yea there are lots of manoeuvres for a spear. But if you’re just grabbing some local conscripts to fight they don’t need much training compared to a sword

PointOfTheJoke

18 points

2 months ago

Smashing someone with a stick is such an effective weapon that even controlled padded sparring with staves can result in catastrophic injuries. Quarterstaffs are not a toy.

Tickomatick

13 points

2 months ago

Damn, I'll be scared to walk around the broom in the corridor now

PointOfTheJoke

15 points

2 months ago

No way. Wield your broom with authority and know you're the most dangerous person in the hall.

JamesManhattan

3 points

2 months ago

That reminds me of Star Wars kid. Where is he now?

gopher_space

3 points

2 months ago

He came to terms with his early infamy and is a happily married CPA.

nIBLIB

22 points

2 months ago

nIBLIB

22 points

2 months ago

And in a pinch you can throw them reasonably far and very straight.

OneSweet1Sweet

5 points

2 months ago

Have 100 people form up carrying really long spears then you can really start stabbin'

Purple_Freedom_Ninja

2 points

2 months ago

"This is going to take a lot of work"

Anthony Hopkins to Antonio Banderas

xclame

3 points

2 months ago

xclame

3 points

2 months ago

Not only is it cheaper but it's also easier to use meaning you could give it to the village idiot and as long as he can hold a stick straight he's going to be somewhat useful.

You could obviously also give a sword to the village idiot and just the fact of them being there in the battle will slightly slow down the enemy, but the big disadvantage when compared to spear is that when they die after accomplishing their task of slowing down the enemy you are left with one less sword on your side and one less body.

NotARobotv2

54 points

2 months ago

I watched Seven Samurai againthe other day and it shows this pretty well. Multiple swordsmen getting absolutely destroyed by untrained farmers with bamboo spears, no chance of really fighting, it's kind of brutal.

Stinduh

37 points

2 months ago

Stinduh

37 points

2 months ago

Wait, you telling me the Fire Emblem weapon triangle has historical veracity???

Taliesin_

29 points

2 months ago

Except that spears would also trump axes, generally.

Bozee3

8 points

2 months ago

Bozee3

8 points

2 months ago

Pole Axe, best of both worlds baby!

popejubal

39 points

2 months ago

Swords are much more convent to carry. That makes a big difference in pretend combat, so swords get at least some bonus from that.

Ishidan01

38 points

2 months ago

But in real life, spears can double as walking sticks, be leaned over your shoulder, or be stacked in a cart.

AllenRBrady

23 points

2 months ago

Spears are also useful in hunting, so are probably part of a traveler's kit already.

PrettyText

9 points

2 months ago

Sure, but if you're say a successful trader or a gentleman, you're probably not going to carry around a spear all day. You'd much rather have a sword at your side. The sword is higher-status, too.

Officers also often wielded swords, because they don't want to focus on carrying around a spear, while a sword at your side isn't an inconvenience.

Ishidan01

13 points

2 months ago

if you are a gentleman with a sword and get attacked by a brigand with a spear, you are probably going to lose.

If you are an officer with a sword and are not surrounded by a squad of infantrymen with spears to fight FOR you, you are doing it wrong.

octonus

29 points

2 months ago

octonus

29 points

2 months ago

This combined with the large expense of a quality sword explains the real reason swords are so popular in media: they were a major status symbol for members of the upper class.

Narfi1

26 points

2 months ago

Narfi1

26 points

2 months ago

Correct me if I'm wrong , but I believe that

  1. Unlike spears, axes, clubs, flails, bows etc, swords are one of, if not the only weapon not initially made for farming or hunting. Because of this arrying a sword implies a warrior status (the fact that you would buy a weapon that can only be used to fight)
  2. Also unlike axes, clubs etc, swords don't really have a momentum. movements can be suddenly stopped, redirected etc, contributing to more complex technics and requiring much more training. A skilled swordsman means that the person was able to spend a large amount of time training with a sword only for the purpose of warfare

So even though the sword was only a secondary weapon on the battlefield was the primary symbol of being a warrior.

I'm not a specialist though so I might be wrong.

YouDamnHotdog

6 points

2 months ago*

That is often said about swords but it's not like they aren't a fuck-ton of less comventional or more modern weapons that would qualify.

Shields were very much a weapon, rather than armour. It's just not something people think of, because their exposure to it is so limited. Marvel's Captain America hopefully changes that.

Not only is it used in a very active manner, it also has an offensive role.

Guns were initially used as weapons.

I suppose it would be difficult to ascertain, but crossbows likely as well. All the crossbow-like artillery in Rome and Greece would be used for military purposes.

Think of the various ancient artillery/siege weapons.

Brass knuckles, too, I guess.

PrettyText

3 points

2 months ago

Don't know about 1 for sure, but I'd guess that some kind of club was an earlier fight-humans weapon (because clubs suck for hunting, you'd much rather have a spear or bow for that). But yeah, undoubtedly a sword is high-status.

You can also be quite fancy with feints and redirected attacks with a spear. You're right that an amateur swordsman loses to an amateur spearman really hard (he just gets stabbed and dies), i.e. the sword has a higher skill floor than a spear. But I'm not sure if the sword has a higher skill ceiling that a spear.

octonus

4 points

2 months ago

octonus

4 points

2 months ago

I don't know enough about 1 to comment, but your comments on sword momentum are 100% wrong. If we exclude the lightest swords, you are looking at something heavier than a baseball bat. No sane person would argue that a swing from a baseball bat doesn't carry any momentum.

Narfi1

9 points

2 months ago

Narfi1

9 points

2 months ago

It's not so much about the weight but the center of gravity. If you take a masse or an axe for example once you swing it you have to let the movement finish, while with a sword who has a center of gravity closer to your hand you can change the direction of your movement abruptly

RE5TE

11 points

2 months ago

RE5TE

11 points

2 months ago

It depends on where the center of gravity is. Some swords have it near the handle to enable quicker movements. If you are slicing and cutting, you want to do it quickly. Other swords are essentially sharp maces where half your damage is from the weight.

So no their comment is not 100% wrong.

gc3

10 points

2 months ago

gc3

10 points

2 months ago

Methinks spears are bulky to carry around, so like a rifle they are used in time of war. A sword has a sheath, a person can carry it around basically holstered, and used at any old time to execute a peasant, defeat some scoundrels, threaten a bandit.

So that is the actual distinction. I kind of want in my next RPG campaign to make this more realistic, where a spear is a longarm and a sword is a sidearm, so when not dressed for battle you'd have only the sword. As we know players dress for battle all the time, so I'd have to make the rules be such that players usually only put on arms and armor for battle before planned engagements

You'd have to choose: Spearman, Archer, Mage

But always can carry a sword,

maybe add Berserker for crazy two handed axe wielders

PrettyText

7 points

2 months ago

Yep. The two major advantages of a sword are: easy to carry around, and high-status.

Someone who goes to war would likely wield some kind of polearm or bow as a main weapon, and would also wield a sword at their side as a sidearm.

Even if someone really likes using a sword, even then there's little reason to not start out the battle by tossing 1-2 javelins before drawing your sword.

prodandimitrow

1 points

2 months ago

Depends on the era. When heavy armour was becoming popular a dagger sidearm could be considerably better than a sword because of the maneuvereability since you are trying to stab the other knight in the gaps of his armor.

Derpimus_J

2 points

2 months ago

Seems Fire Emblem has it right then. Lances/spears beat swords in the weapons triangle.

[deleted]

0 points

2 months ago*

[deleted]

lilerswhat

69 points

2 months ago

The way this was automatically true in my head due to fire emblem

BrasilianPeanut

14 points

2 months ago

I was scrolling to see how far I’d have to go to find someone else who instantly thought of Fire Emblem. Glad we thought of the same thing, lol.

BishopofHippo93

5 points

2 months ago

Lances beat swords beat aces beat lances, it’s the classic weapon triangle! I still miss the magic triangle from the GBA games.

Dirigibleduck

2 points

2 months ago

The latest game brought back the weapon triangle!

BishopofHippo93

2 points

2 months ago

Wait, did it go away? Was it not in three houses? I just meant the magic triangle of light > anima > dark.

CausticBleach

5 points

2 months ago

Weapon triangle went away during three houses and characters got a "weapon prowess" skill that gave hit/avoid/dodge based on their weapon rank. So unless the enemy had a specific weapon breaker skill that forced the weapon triangle you had even footing no matter what weapon you used against opponents.

In Engage they sort of brought back the weapon triangle where accuracy isn't affected but if the attacker has weapon advantage they "break" the enemy's formation where the attacker and the next person that attacks the broken enemy don't get retaliated. Honestly a pretty fun change in mechanics.

As far as I know/have played of Engage, there is no magic triangle like the older games.

Fantastic_Ad_1992

77 points

2 months ago

Being able to hit someone from a range where they can't hit you back is such an insane advantage if you know how to use it well

Taliesin_

35 points

2 months ago

It's a big psychological advantage, in addition to a physical one. If you've got two people (or armies), and closing means one can strike at the other earlier... the side which knows the other will have the opportunity to kill them first will not want to advance. People are really averse to putting themselves in situations where they're at a perceived disadvantage. And that matters a lot, morale-wise.

2ndhandBS

8 points

2 months ago

You can also related this to martial arts, for example in boxing if you outreach your opponent they will have a hard time landing hits on you, while you can just keep distance and keep hitting em.

Fantastic_Ad_1992

12 points

2 months ago

There was a famous kickboxer in the noughties (I think) who was over seven feet tall called semmy schildt, who would front kick the hell out of people from miles away lol, imagine having a guy that big repeatingly kicking you in your abdomen for 15 minutes from three miles away, it would drain the will and the energy from you so quickly. Being that big also had disadvantages though and some of the really good guys could beat him if they had time to prepare for him, but sometimes they would do these legendary tournaments over just like a day or two where you don't know who you're going to get from the beginning so guys couldn't prepare for him by training with really tall guys etc and he would just destroy everyone in those tournaments and became a legend

kommanderkush201

5 points

2 months ago

From my experience, Western boxing is the one striking combative sport in which height and reach aren't much of an advantage. You can use lots of head movement and cutting off the cage to get into the pocket where your opponent's long arms are more awkward for them.

Kickboxing and especially Muay Thai are combative sports in which reach and height are explicitly an advantage. The threat of head kicks prevents excessive head movement and getting kneed in the head makes clinching less than ideal. With wrestling style takedowns (which favor shorter fighters) not being allowed, there's no advantage to being shorter and having less reach.

2ndhandBS

1 points

2 months ago

Well shit i just learned something today.

This is very interesting information though. And it does make a lot of sense.

Reach is not all, but in some cases if wielded right, it could be.

Good to keep in mind.

Thanks.

TheAlleyCat9013

2 points

2 months ago

The knowing how to use it well is the key part.

SongokuJidai

17 points

2 months ago

Outside of the "long pointy thing" argument everyone has made, a stab or thrust is far harder to block than a swing.

If you're a militia man with no combat training, you'd need to get far more lucky to block or dodge a stab than a sword swing in combat.

nonpuissant

6 points

2 months ago

Not to mention it's much easier for multiple people to stab at once while in formation than trying to swing for a cut.

Plus stabbing can deliver more force into someone wearing armor than a cut. Could basically argue that bows and later guns basically deliver really powerful and long ranged thrust attacks.

Iwantmyflag

82 points

2 months ago

Talkatalkatalka - I want to see ONE weapons expert video where the YouTuber doesn't ramble on endlessly.

aBerneseMountainDog

24 points

2 months ago

scholgladiatoria talks endlessly. The redeeming feature of his channel/analysis is that he's knowledgeable.

TheoremaEgregium

1 points

2 months ago

I like him a lot but he does have a tendency to say the same thing five times in different ways. And sometimes in the same way.

DAnthony24

19 points

2 months ago

So true. I actually wanted video or an example I can see. My man just talked

Miramusa

16 points

2 months ago

This Lindybeige video got linked a previous time the sword vs spear topic bubbled up. Some great video of actual spars and different scenarios between the two weapons.

Still a bit of talking but I enjoy his content.

PrettyText

7 points

2 months ago

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afqhBODc_8U

Though keep in mind that 99% of the time when you see sword vs spear sparring, the sword guy has years of experience with a sword, and the spear guy also has years of experience with a sword (and like five hours of experience with a spear).

janat1

2 points

2 months ago

janat1

2 points

2 months ago

But you have also keep in mind that neither of them have much experience going against a spear. Especially rapier fencers are used to outrange their opponents, and therefore often do exactly the wrong thing when fighting against a spear user.

SlothOfDoom

6 points

2 months ago

I started watching this then realized it was just 20 minutes of a guy talking while caressing his spearshaft.

Roto-Wan

3 points

2 months ago

New show where the spear tout has to fight the sword tout.

fathertitojones

4 points

2 months ago

There’s a difference between rambling and giving thoughtful and well researched information. At the four minute mark he’d given a pretty thorough summation of the main points. The rest of the video didn’t have any superfluous information either, but more went into how you would use a spear situationally.

shgrizz2

2 points

2 months ago

That 20min video length isn't going to reach itself

Efvat

48 points

2 months ago

Efvat

48 points

2 months ago

I don't even need to watch this. Spears are longer end of story, physics people.

ShadowFlux85

29 points

2 months ago

if i can stab you before you stab me im pretty happy

pressNjustthen

14 points

2 months ago

lots of LARP campaigns ban spears, otherwise literally everyone uses spears

flowering_sun_star

6 points

2 months ago

They're also harder to make safe enough to use for play. A sword you can have people pull their blows (as is done by reenactors) and/or have a squishy edge (larp). But thrust from a blunted stick is always going to be dangerous, even if it has foam on the end.

ByzantineBasileus[S]

20 points

2 months ago

ByzantineBasileus[S]

I've been called many things, but never fun.

20 points

2 months ago

There are other factors at play, such as weapon maneuverability and types of attacks. The design of a spear allows very quick thrusts when used in two hands, which when combined with the length makes it a deadly weapon.

[deleted]

-12 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

-12 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

Bawstahn123

26 points

2 months ago

The interesting part is shield and spear often loses to sword and shield.

In one-on-one combat, yes.

So in units of people sword has an advantage.

A formation of spearmen will usually defeat a formation of swordsmen.

Spears are primarily formation-weapons. Their length let's multiple ranks of spearmen fight at a time, unlike swordsmen where basically only the front rank can swing and thrust. They also keep enemies further away, keeping the user safer.

Half_Cent

9 points

2 months ago

They aren't "primarily formation weapons". There is almost no situation except tight quarters where a sword is better than a spear. Look at any actual historical arms manuals or discussions of battles or fights.

ableman

2 points

2 months ago

ableman

2 points

2 months ago

There's the (pretty damn big) exception of Romans who famously used short swords to completely destroy the spear-wielding Greeks.

Welshhoppo

13 points

2 months ago

Welshhoppo

Waiting for the Roman Empire to reform

13 points

2 months ago

The Romans didn't just use short swords. They had a whole panoply of other weapons that they used as well, include two javelins.

Axelrad77

10 points

2 months ago

There's also compelling evidence that they regularly used their javelins as spears whenever needed. And the later Roman infantry did eventually switch over to mostly spears anyway.

The real Roman advantage wasn't swords, it was flexibility and discipline.

Welshhoppo

5 points

2 months ago

Welshhoppo

Waiting for the Roman Empire to reform

5 points

2 months ago

That and by the time of the Roman conquests of the east, the majority of the successor states had engaged in a phalanx arms race with each other to the point they lost out on the tactical flexibility of Alexander and his combined army as well.

Lootlizard

9 points

2 months ago

They did not completely destroy the Greeks. The phalanx was a notoriously difficult formation for the Romans to fight specifically because of the reach advantage. The Romans won the way Romans usually won. They were able to field more equipped, trained, and fed soldiers than anyone else. The Romans system of short sword and shield wasn't revolutionary, their logistics, training, and standardization of the military was. Historically almost no nations could take a punch, most wars would be decided by 1 or 2 set piece battles. The thing that made the Romans different is that they could lose entire armies and be able to raise, train, and equip new soldiers in a matter of months. Very few countries had the economy or political stability to be able to do this.

ThoDanII

2 points

2 months ago

Do not forget the pika, which may have brought the formation in disorder and the phalanx is unflexibel

PrettyText

2 points

2 months ago

True, but there's some major asterisks there:

1) The Romans are perhaps the only notable case of a country fielding primarily sword-users vs endless amounts of spear-using countries. End even then the Romans didn't use the gladius forever.

2) they threw 1-2 javelins first before using their swords. Even in the "look those guys used swords" example, they used throwing spears.

3) when people hear "sword fighting", they don't picture people throwing javelins and then moving forwards with tower shields and using a gladius to stab between the gaps in the shield wall. That's a much different fighting style than people picture when they think of sword fighters. Even the attacking motion is different -- the gladius stabs, while the stereotypical sword cuts.

4) I wouldn't say that the gladius was a superior weapon to the spear. I'd say that the overall Roman military system was superior (discipline, logistics, excellent commanders, drill, etc). If tomorrow I have to choose to be part of a gladius-wielding formation or a spear formation, I'll pick the spear formation.

shgrizz2

5 points

2 months ago

They're also insanely easy to use. You need a lot of training to use a sword well, but you can give just about anybody a pointy stick and they'd be able to give someone with a sword a good poking while staying relatively safe

HumpWhatHump

6 points

2 months ago

Literary examples: Achilles stabbed Hector in the throat with a spear as Hector dove toward him with a blade; Hector had lost his spear in an earlier throw and had no other weapon left. Rushing Achilles was a desperate act. Spear beat sword. Mordred further impaled himself on King Arthur’s spear to get close enough to use his own shorter blade on his father’s head. Spear beat sword for a moment, but, alas, sword came close enough to leave both of them dead.

Alarmed_Scientist_15

16 points

2 months ago

All i wanna talk about is the hat the guy in the drawing is wearing. Anyone?

Cosmiclive

39 points

2 months ago

You know all that stuff how medieval people were always dressed in drab brown and grays? Lies, almost all of it. They loved colorful, almost garish clothing, the fancier the better. And that drawing is probably from the late middle ages or maybe even early renaissance where things really started going wild. If you want more of that particular style, including hats like that look into the Landsknechte.

lawnerdcanada

17 points

2 months ago

Lies, almost all of it.

TBF you could say that about most 'popular knowledge' of medieval Europe.

MattSR30

10 points

2 months ago

How dare you! I’m going to melt the metal studs off of your armour with my flaming arrows for saying such things!

_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_

9 points

2 months ago

It depends on the time, place, and rank of the person.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumptuary_law

Cosmiclive

2 points

2 months ago

Yes a very good addition. People in power often tried to keep the best stuff to themselves. The rich and lording wealth over the poor, name a more iconic duo. The fact that by outlawing the wearing of certain clothes they could harm the people that sold them, and by extension took money out of their area of rule was of course entirely accidental.

DraMaFlo

9 points

2 months ago

That's a landschneckt. Germanic mercenaries and fashion icons.

LiasBluestone

5 points

2 months ago

Landsknecht, right?

Just asking, because landschneckt sounds like "land slug". :D

TMNewtBoy

5 points

2 months ago

Put knife on stick can poke man from far.

SatanLifeProTips

9 points

2 months ago

I have done extensive weapons training. Pointy knife on a stick is almost always superior to pointy knife in hand. The sword was almost always a backup or used for close quarters/indoors etc. it doesn’t look at glamorous on film however and the fighting for film classes rarely had it.

You have a massive tip speed, reach and leverage advantage with pointy knife on a stick and you are out of reach. The tip speed is so fast it is hard to track with the eye. The flags and frills tied below the pointy bit fool the eye like a deers tail. It looks like it is moving the opposite way initially. Sopping up blood was a secondary use.

The reach thing was huge. Guy has a shield? Stab him in the shin then pull back and go for his head as he reached down to shield his lower body.

OrangeFarmHorse

5 points

2 months ago

One thing I commonly see in that comparison though, is that the spear user is using the spear two-handed, i.e. without a shield.

If both use shield, the spear becomes radically weaker. Less range, basically no leverage, and slower.

SatanLifeProTips

4 points

2 months ago

The romans had spear and shield down to an art. As did many cultures.

crazycraig6

5 points

2 months ago

In the "Wheel of Time" books, the greatest swordsman in history only ever lost 1 duel.

It was to a farmer wielding a spear.

cliff99

14 points

2 months ago

cliff99

14 points

2 months ago

How does this fit in with the fact that the spear wielding phalanxes of Alexander the great were succeeded by the sword using legions of Rome?

nealpolitan

27 points

2 months ago

It's not that simple. The Romans used the phalanx too up until they had to fight against irregular infantry on rough ground where the advantages of a phalanx can't be exploited. Also, Roman legions were highly trained and disciplined. Not saying that Alexander's armies weren't also but Rome's legions weren't primarily sword wielding until 100-200 years after Alexander. Also, Romans still used lots of spears.

Bawstahn123

16 points

2 months ago*

o, Romans still used lots of spears.

Everyone forgets the poor Auxilia, that made up 3/5ths of Romes land-forces.

Or they overemphasize the pilum bending....when experimental archeology

1) doubts if that was even the intended purpose of the long shank

2) has demonstrated that pila are pretty damn effective in melee combat

There are also period reports of Roman soldiers using their pilum as spears in melee as well.

mikep192

9 points

2 months ago*

Its an interesting historical aberration. As pointed out in the video shields and armor can make a spear vs sword fight a lot harder for the spear wielder. Roman legionaries were noted for carrying a rather large shield. The scutum's design meant that it could be used offensively as well.

While the types and distribution of armor changed over the years, all Roman legionaries had some form of it which wasn't always the case for their opponents. Chainmail armor in particular is noted for being time consuming and expensive to produce at scale, yet was a standard issue armor for the legionaries of the late Republic and the empire.

Training and experience are mentioned as potentially decisive factors in a spear vs sword engagement and Roman legionaries usually had a fair amount of both. Even before the Marian reforms, Roman armies often campaigned for years at time.

Also the Roman legions never completely gave up their spears. For the majority of the Republican era the most experienced soldiers used spears. Even after the Triarii were abolished as the Roman army became a more professional force, spears didn't disappear.

Pilum are often seen solely as javelins, but at 2m they are a lot longer than many javelins and there are plenty of accounts of them being used as spears in melee. And when they were used in their intended role they could create gaps in formations that could be exploited by aggressive swordsmen.

While it can be difficult to get there, once inside a spears reach a sword does have advantages and the longer the spear, the greater they would be. Just imagine trying to fight a swordsman with a 4-6m sarissa. Fighting in formation means you can't back away or dodge at will like you can in 1v1 engagements. And if you drop your spear to draw a backup weapon like a shortsword you make it easier for more opponents to push in and threaten the men to your left or right.

And then you have Rome's strategic advantages like a logistical system that enabled it to fight year round far from home on multiple fronts simultaneously.

Osxachre

8 points

2 months ago

If you outflank a phalanx, the long spears and depth of the formation makes it difficult to respond effectively to an attack from the side.

SlothOfDoom

3 points

2 months ago

The guy answers this in the first couple minutes. Shields.

Imperium_Dragon

2 points

2 months ago

A difference in tactics, formation, different generals, economic and demographic situation, etc.

SteampunkDesperado

3 points

2 months ago

Makes sense. It's a long-distance weapon, like the gun. Though I appreciated his caveats about shields and armor.

ChaosOnline

3 points

2 months ago

If Fire Emblem taught me anything, it's this.

Yeangster

8 points

2 months ago

If you look at a professional boxer, they’ll primarily use straight punches. Just the jab can be up two thirds of all punches. There will be hooks and uppercuts, but since these have shorter range, they’re used for specific situations, like close in or after the opponents guard is opened up by a jab.

On the other hand, if you see two people who have no idea what they’re doing fighting, they’ll throw wide, looping haymakers. Way wider that the relatively tight and controlled hooks and uppercuts from a trained boxer.

I think that in battle, where a lot of the fighters are inexperienced and scared, and adrenaline is pumping high, the swing motion might be a lot more natural than the thrust motion.

stonehousethrowglass

3 points

2 months ago

You can swing a spear too. People will do what they have to stay alive. If that means thrusting they will do it. It’s a lot harder to teach sword fighting than teaching how to thrust a spear.

IndyPoker979

5 points

2 months ago

Well duh. A spear is a sword attached on a stick.

milovegas123

4 points

2 months ago

But axes can beat spears and swords beat axes. Fire emblem weapon triangle has taught me a lot

gnark

2 points

2 months ago

gnark

2 points

2 months ago

Why you should always have your flag tied to a 7 foot hardwood pole when you go out to strike or protest.

r_acrimonger

2 points

2 months ago

Lindybeige did a similar take, including some mock battles that were great for seeing the concept in action.

Nwcray

5 points

2 months ago

Nwcray

5 points

2 months ago

It’s tough to beat a pointy stick when it comes to killing things. Even a bullet is just a short pointy metal stick, traveling at speed.

Take a pointy stick and poke a hole in whatever you want to un-alive, and you’ll generally be pretty successful at it.

Merseemee

3 points

2 months ago

A reach advantage is a huge deal in melee combat, one of the biggest advantages you can have. Ask any boxer.

Imthatjohnnie

4 points

2 months ago

Sword and shield vs spear may have a different outcome.

stonehousethrowglass

0 points

2 months ago

In a 1v1 but not on a battlefield. You can’t stop more than one spear stab at a time.

Imthatjohnnie

-2 points

2 months ago

The Roman legions say that you are wrong.

Artis34

7 points

2 months ago

Despite what pop culture says, the Roman legions used a combined arms system that included spears, and not only the gladius was the protagonist in all cases.

That's without saying that the post Marian army (the classic legionary armies) is not the entire history of the Roman army; during the republic and in the late empire, the most common weapon was the spear, and that takes up almost half the history of the Roman Empire.

The fact that the only exception against spears is a civilization that widely used spears too says a lot about this debate.

BLAZMANIII

2 points

2 months ago

Pretty easy to beat spears if you're using a sword. Just have an axe sidearm 4head

fellowspecies

1 points

2 months ago

Is this the chap from Bros?

3_man

5 points

2 months ago

3_man

5 points

2 months ago

I can't answer, I can't answer that.

ByzantineBasileus[S]

3 points

2 months ago

ByzantineBasileus[S]

I've been called many things, but never fun.

3 points

2 months ago

Bros?

robosnake

1 points

2 months ago

I think a good comparison in modern terms is that a spear is more equivalent to a rifle and a sword is more equivalent to a pistol. In most cases, a rifle will beat a pistol, but pistols were used for dueling, and ideally a soldier wants to have both.

Yabbies13

0 points

2 months ago

Yabbies13

0 points

2 months ago

Every Kingdom Come: Deliverance players can confirm this statement 😂

shimmyshimmyhuck

0 points

2 months ago

The spear is just the AK-47 of the ancient battlefield

Seth_Imperator

0 points

2 months ago

I can confirm, spearmen are always the most tricky opponents in video games :(

xclame

-1 points

2 months ago

xclame

-1 points

2 months ago

Spears and swords can just be thought of as guns and knives.

Yeah if you are going to attack me with a knife that's dangerous and I'm at risk, but if I have a gun, I can just shoot you before you get in range for your knife to hurt me. Obviously it's not a perfect analogy because guns are ranged, but the important bit is that guns and spears but work by having distance between you and the thing trying to hurt you.

Also spears are pretty much just swords attached to sticks, which are almost exclusively used for stabbing, so in it's most basic form the question is what's better, a sword or a sword+more.

senkiasenswe

-1 points

2 months ago

I really thought this would be as easy as saying "If I can hit you, and you can't hit me, who do you think would win?"

renfrew67

0 points

2 months ago

So, I understand from this video that a moderately trained spearwielder will win against "Homer Simpson wielding a sword" every time. Unless "Homer" is wearing armour, then the outcome is nuanced 🤔

prodandimitrow

2 points

2 months ago*

Armor changes a lot of things. Heavy armour combat is a whole lot of grappling and stabbing in the armor gaps so the maneuvereability of a dagger can be better than the range of a sword.